Feedback welcome! Here’s the TL;DR list
- Listen more to more Black people
- Post less – and think before you post
- Call in, call out, and/or report anti-Blackness when you see it
- Support Black people and Black-led instances and projects
Other suggestions?
We’ve removed some of the comments in this thread for expressing the exact racist sentiments which would warrant this type of post and for arguing in bad faith. This is a perfectly salient conversation to be having in this community so we will be leaving this thread up, but as a reminder, please engage in good faith and be nice. If you don’t want to have conversations about anti-racism in Technology then I suggest you unsubscribe from this community and others on Beehaw.
On a personal note: I would be absolutely thrilled to see more, better discussions of the intersections of areas like race, gender, and sexuality with technology, and fewer arguments about which Linux distro is better.
Other commenters provided feedback that was given in good faith. Those replies were left up. I hope you can see why we might consider jumping straight to comparing the poster to Hitler when you disagree with their well intentioned post about how to better be anti-racist on Fediverse communities to be a bit problematic.
there are difficulties but bluntly: these are only “unworkable” if you’re dismissive (as your comment here is) and/or make absolutely no effort to make them work. you are largely vindicating the need for such a list.
Again, total nonsense. I’ll repeat exactly what i said in one of the comments you deleted, and YOU can tell me why it’s wrong. On lemmy there’s no way to know what race/gender/sexuality a person is. So, you tell me, how is any of this stuff applicable here? If OP was just talking about mastodon, then their title is completely wrong, because their title is specifically saying how to change the fediverse, not how to change mastodon.
to be clear, your argument here is:
- you can’t know the race, sex, gender identity, or other immutable characteristic of every person who posts on Lemmy or another service, so
- you therefore can’t listen to those voices when they identify themselves or clearly mark themselves as such; you can’t pre-emptively think about the nature of what you post and whether it’s harmful to such groups; you can’t report or check harmful behavior from others against those groups; and you can’t support initiatives led by these groups? – these are just entirely non-applicable in this space?
i feel like if you can’t see how obviously ridiculous and farcical this argument is, you’re again the person who vindicates the need for a list like this–however objectionable you find it.
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My argument is you can’t tell the demographic identity of ANY person who posts on lemmy. Even when they supposedly self-identify.
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Again, what you’re saying here is radically different than what OP is saying in the 4 points they posted. There was nothing limiting it to “on discussions about being black”.
Again, what you’re saying here is radically different than what OP is saying in the 4 points they posted. There was nothing limiting it to “on discussions about being black”.
i am demographically one of the people OP is trying to be considerate of (a black nonbinary person)–so i think i have a better idea of what they’re going for here than you. to say nothing of the fact that you’re an off-instance poster who, just to be clear for any observers, analogized the idea of paying attention to any demographic information for any reason to fascist genocides. (“Better yet we can skip that and simply put demographic badges next to people’s username, like a yellow star for Jewish people, a pink triangle for homosexuals, and… hm, that sounds familiar, where has that happened before?”)
anyways this is not interesting to me and i think we’ve established that you are one of the reasons lists like this need to exist, which is the only reason i waded in here to begin with–one of the community mods has already given you a ban for your conduct in this thread and the admins are in agreement that this should be extended sitewide.
Thanks very much for wading in, @alyaza@beehaw.org - and thanks again to all the mods for taking action here. Any thread about racism in the fediverse becomes evidence of racism in the fediverse, sigh.
More positively, though, I got some very helpful feedback here from @Kwakigra@beehaw.org, @SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org and @kalanggam@beehaw.org … which is appreciated, and testimony to the fact that clearly a lot of people on Beehaw do get it!
removed by mod
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removed by mod
I was surprised to see the tone of response I saw in here. I always thought of beehaw as an inclusive instance.
I always thought of beehaw as an inclusive instance.
most of the issue is and has always been off-instance users, who for a variety of reasons (some intentional, some because of UI/user experience/just plain unawareness due to the nuances of federation) tend to respond to threads like these in ways that our on-instance users don’t. to combat this we may or may not switch to a whitelist in the future instead of a blacklist, which is what we have now; if that occurs, it will probably be when we move to Sublinks
switch to a whitelist in the future instead of a blacklist
Phrasing?
there is no phrasing to be redone; it’s the official wording, i am decidedly not a person offended by the whitelist/blacklist terminology, and i think if you can only racialize this verbiage when you hear it that’s weirdness on your part. i’m sure there are some people who have problems with it, but i genuinely don’t know that i’ve ever–as a black person–thought for a second about this outside of white people getting offended on my behalf. certainly not when online spaces struggle with so much actual racism, ignorance, and dismissiveness of those prior two things (as has been on display in this thread).
I’ve seen increasing usage of “allowlist/denylist” .
Seeing how society is consciously trying to move beyond white inherently being good and black inherently being bad, I think it’s perfectly right for someone to ask you to check your verbage. Just switch to allowlist/denylist like the rest of tech has done.
see: “i think if you can only racialize this verbiage when you hear it that’s weirdness on your part.” and again i think this very much people wanting to die on an unimportant hill that they can feel sanctimonious/virtue-signally about and scold people about instead of tackling actual manifestations of racism in the tech field.
i cannot stress this enough: if people want to address something that materially affects black people and other minorities in tech, that should probably start with the omnipresent discriminatory hiring practices and normalized racism–not terminology that requires racialization to be problematic. (and it should probably start with not checking actual black people’s opinions on this subject like they’re the reason any of this is a problem!)
actual black people’s opinions
But I’m black too though and I don’t remember voting for you as our representative. Which is to say, yes, there’s certainly other things we can do to tackle racism, but tackling ground level stuff like inherently painting black as bad and/or negative is part of that. You’re free to disagree, but so would Candace Owens, so being black means nothing when you’re on the wrong side of the issue.
there’s certainly other things we can do to tackle racism, but tackling ground level stuff like inherently painting black as bad and/or negative is part of that.
i simply do not think that this is racist or worth caring about unless you make it (at which point i would argue yet again the problem is internalized, not with the phrasing used), and i think this is reflected in how the overwhelming majority of people who care about this are white people who want to feel good about themselves without doing anything that would actually tackle racism at the source or challenge their whiteness and how they might benefit from it. to me “whitelist/blacklist” is extremely representative of contemporary slacktivism–stuff that feels good but is functionally a red herring toward material progress on these issues. (notice, for instance, how much time we’re wasting on even debating if this is valuable when we could be doing anything else. and how we’re doing this in a thread where some people are just unambiguously being racist.)
I agree completely. We do work hard to keep things inclusive and nice™ on Beehaw, but Technology is our largest and most active community by a fair margin, and sometimes folks don’t respect the vibe on the instance when they comment - either because they don’t realize what instance the post is on, or because they don’t understand or maybe don’t care to understand the ethos of the instance.
We’ve done some cleanup in the thread, but removals can take time to federate (if they federate at all, which is not guaranteed in my experience. Hopefully the discussion from here out will be more inclusive, but we’ll be keeping a closer eye on the thread in any case.
Thanks very much for wading in!
